Interview with Dave Cowden
Dave Cowden is a Yachats-based musician who currently plays with Creighton Horton (TYG Issues 65 and 66).
TYG: So, where are you from originally?
Dave: I was born and raised in Kansas City and Johnni, my wife, was as well. We went to high school together. I graduated a couple of years ahead of her, went to college, and then I went in the military. She went to college, and we parted ways and ended up marrying other people. Then we ran into each other being single again back in Kansas City about thirteen years ago. She was living in Eugene, and I was still in Kansas City because I had five kids. So we did the long-distance thing for a while and got sick of that. That got old in a big hurry. She was sort of thinking she could be done with her career—she was the Executive Director of the Greenhill Humane Society in Eugene for quite a few years. She’d reached a point, like I said, where she felt she could be done with her career, so we started seriously talking about getting married, what we would do, where we would live. So I negotiated a deal with her to get married and move back to Kansas City until my youngest one graduated. So we got married in Eugene, and moved back to Kansas City for six years. We thought we were going to move back to Eugene because we had kept her house that she had there. All the time we were vacationing we were coming over to Yachats, to the coast, and we just fell in love with the place. But the last year we vacationed here we saw this house for sale and inquired about it, not having any intention of buying the thing. We were more or less just being nosy—we had no idea what the real estate was like here. So we were going to move back to Eugene, but we found this place and just kind of got a little snooping about it. We talked all the way back to Kansas City—just yak, yak yak yak, you know, doing the pros and cons on it. We finally decided to make an offer on it. It was an estate sale, so there were some motivated sellers, and we happened to hit the market and the interest rates in the right place. So we bought it, and moved here in June of 2013. I work from home, I’m in sales. So I worked out a deal with my employer. I sell industrial metals: aluminum, steel, stainless, that kind of thing. Business has progressed over the years with the advent of the internet and communications and all that. I tell people jokingly, but really it might be possible, that I could work from the moon if I had internet connectivity; it wouldn’t matter. [...] I worked out a deal with my employer to work from home, because I did work from the corporate office in Kansas City. We don’t sell any finished product, it’s all just raw materials: sheets, plates, bars, tubes, that kind of stuff. We sell to machine shops and manufacturers who build anything and everything that’s made out of metal. It’s amazing, if you look around and really pay attention in your world, the things that are made out of metal. It’s unbelievable: door hinges, automotive parts; I sell to just about every industry that’s out there: farm implements; a customer who was the first subcontractor to Lockheed Martin and NASA—I sell him titanium and aerospace aluminum, castings and forgings and that kind of stuff. It’s pretty interesting. I’ve been in the same field for 44 years.
TYG-Graphic Design: Did you get a degree in that?
Dave: No, I didn’t! I bounced around with the idea of what my major should be, and I haven’t really graduated from anything. I took music, and I was in art and photography school for a while, and just life got in the way. I went into the military, I got married... Things just drive some of your choices. I’ve got a smattering of knowledge of a whole bunch of stuff that’s not related to each other. It’s been a good career; it’s been ups and downs, with the economy. There have been some really, really good times, and some really slow times. Right now it’s not particularly good, but it’s kind of showing some signs of trying to come back. But moved here, and met Creight—I know you did an article on him. He and his family moved here about three months after we did. Creight and I met at an open mike at Green Salmon—they have one once a month. I played something solo, and he played something solo, and we just kind of chatted afterward and said, “Well, I like what you’re doing, let’s just get together and jam!” And that was the intent. We were just going to get together and enjoy playing a little bit of music together. Over a period of time, we found out that there were some venues around here that hired local musicians, so we thought, “Well, maybe we could work up enough material to maybe play once in a while. Well, “once in a while” has turned into a pretty significant part-time job! [laughs]
TYG: Every couple of days, right?
Dave: Well, during the summer season it gets crazy! I keep track of it on the calendar—I think in July we played eighteen times. And August, we did like fourteen, and September we’re going to end up with something like sixteen.
TYG: Wow!
TYG-GD: Where do you play most often?
Dave: We’re kind of the house musicians for Luna Sea Fish House.
TYG: We’re neighbors with the owners—they’re literally just across the courtyard.
Dave: Oh! Well Robert Anthony, who owns Luna Sea Fish House, hired Creight’s daughter Eyrie before she went to college, and she’s come back every summer and worked as a server. She told Robert, “If you build a stage, my Dad and his buddy might come down and play music sometime. He thought that was a good idea, so he built a platform, and the platform year on year has become a platform with walls, and then a platform with walls and a canopy, and then they put a glass wall on one side. So we’ve got almost an enclosed little stage down there, and this is our fourth summer playing. We play kind of a lunch hour set on Saturday, and then an evening set on Saturday; and then on holiday weekends like the 4th of July, Memorial Day, Labor Day, there’s always a Monday involved and sometimes Sunday too, so we play there pretty regularly. And then we play at the Drift Inn a couple times a month. In fact, I played a solo gig—Creight’s out of town, he went to his fiftieth high school reunion. As much as I dislike it—I don’t like to play solo, because over my musical career, I’ve always played in a band. I never really considered myself to be a lead singer. I played in bands that always had at least one guy, if not a couple guys, who had really good voices, good lead voices. I took vocal music in school and studied harmony and theory in college, and I know the mechanics; I took piano as a kid, so I know the mechanics pretty well, but I was always way more comfortable singing harmony behind somebody who had a really good voice.
TYG-GD: What is your primary instrument?
Dave: Guitar. Creight and I both play guitar, and he plays banjo, mandolin, and a little harmonica; and I play piano—I’ve got an electric piano, an 88-key piano that I used to carry around, but for one-nighters, and as I get older, it’s just a little bit more than I want to deal with physically, to haul the piano and set it up along with all the other stuff.
TYG: I’m not sure, but I think ours may have more than 88 keys. 88 keys is really small, right?
Dave: No, it’s a full size.
TYG: Oh, never mind then.
Dave: The only piano which is bigger than that is a Bösendorfer, which is about a $100,000 grand piano, and it has an extra octave on the bottom. When you hit those big, crashing low notes, it rattles the walls almost. They’re pretty amazing pianos—I’ve never had my hands on one, but... I wouldn’t know what to do with the extra keys, probably! [laughs] [...] I’m a fan of a bass line. In bands, I’ve played bass off and on. I played stand-up, double bass in a church choir for twenty-some years in Kansas City, just because the transition from a guitar to a bass is not a big step; it’s a pretty easy jump. I enjoy playing bass.
Before that, my musical background... I was in a working band when I was fifteen years old. I couldn’t even drive—I had to have one of the other guys come pick me up. That was really just a once in a while on a weekend kind of thing, whenever we could get a job somewhere. They were pretty small events.
TYG-GD: How do you hook up with a band when you’re a fifteen year old?
Dave: School. You know, guys I went to school with. Interestingly, when I was in school—I graduated in 1964. Johnni and I went to school together. It wasn’t a small school; it wasn’t huge, but it wasn’t a small school either. I think in my graduating class there were about 270 something people. At that time, if you think back in the 1960’s, in the early 60’s when I was in high school, I was in the only band in the whole school, the only young guy band that played rock and roll music. My kids all graduated from a different high school in Kansas City, admittedly it was a larger school, but you can’t throw a rock down the hallway and not hit two or three kids who play in bands! They’re just all over the place. And some of these kids are scary good. My daughter plays guitar and sings and writes songs, and she played in a couple of little talent show things at school—they had to audition for it, and they pared it down to like eight or ten acts and she performed at those—some of those kids! I think back to what my skill set was and I look at some of these kids and think, “I’m glad I’m not trying to compete with them!” But having said that, you go back to the internet again. You can go on the internet and find out how to play, note for note, anything. You can just dial it up and there it is, and it’ll show you slow motion, and show you the tablature and everything—leads and chords and everything. It’s a lot easier now. [laughs] I had to keep backing up the needle on the record player, sit there and listen to it. My parents both were farm kids. My mom played piano a little bit; my dad wasn’t musical, but he enjoyed music. In fact, he had a big classical record library and he liked to listen to music. When I was in high school, the Beatles were really just coming out. And I’m backing up the needle and trying to play these lines, and figure them out all on my own, just by listening, playing by ear. We had a combination TV/stereo system in the living room. My dad would be sitting there reading a paper, I’m backing this needle up, and I probably played the same four bars of a guitar part a dozen times, and pretty soon I kind of hit his limit, and the thing that I remember him saying was, “Why don’t you turn that off and let it cool down a little bit?” [laughter] Because I just wore him slick hearing the same thing over and over again, and on top of that, not being music that he could appreciate. But that was the way you learned things back then! I used to go and watch other bands play, and watch other guys, better guitar players than I was at the time, and try to pick up things. I played in high school, I played in college, and right after high school I joined a group that had a full-time, professional manager. They had some good musicians; a couple of them graduated with degrees from the conservatory in the city, so these guys were schooled and smart musicians. One of them had a degree in composing and arranging. He would chart things out, and I would kind of have to try and figure out how to read it. That was good for me, because it kind of forced me to up my game.
TYG: Also to pick up musical notation!
Dave: Sure! Like I said, I took vocal music. I can sight read vocal music—two or three passes, and I can pretty much nail it. I’ve just lost my skill at playing piano and reading music. And I wasn’t that successful at piano lessons, because my ear was just too strong. My discipline to read the notes and put them on the keyboard.
TYG-GD: What do you mean exactly by your ear is “too strong”?
Dave: Well, I ... you hear it. Right now, if you picked something on the radio and played me a few bars of it, I could probably play it back to you on the guitar in a couple of minutes. Wouldn’t be perfect, but it would be close. It’s just the way my wiring works, and I can hear things. That’s the reason I took piano lessons as a child, because when I was like five years old, we went to an aunt’s birthday party, and there was a cake stand that had a music box in it that played the birthday song, and I’m five years old, and they’re sitting around the dinner table having coffee after dinner, and I’m in there one-finger playing, picking it out on the piano. Of course my parents said, “Oh my god, he’s a prodigy!” So I took piano; my sister and I both did. Being a parent now, I have to really look back at the time when I told my dad, after he had spent a lot of money for a piano, and music lessons... We lived in south Kansas City—there were no shopping centers, there were no suburban music centers that taught lessons: you had to go all the way downtown. So rain, sleet, snow, shine—I remember one time my dad put chains on the car, just so we could get downtown for a music lesson—so between financially and taking care of things, there were some things that my parents went without. I recognize that now. And my dad, he didn’t show a lot of emotion at the time when I told him I didn’t want to take piano anymore, I wanted to play the guitar and play in a rock and roll band. My dad’s a pretty soft-spoken guy, and like I said, my parents were both farm kids and pretty down to earth, and they probably could have been a little tougher on me than they were.
TYG-GD: How old were you when you announced this?
Dave: About thirteen, fourteen, something like that. And by fifteen I was in a band, playing jobs.
Our interview with Dave Cowden will continue in Issue 74.
Interview with Gretchen Milhaupt
This is Part 2 of our interview with Gretchen Milhaupt, who has a show currently hanging at Ona Restaurant and Lounge.
Gretchen: I got to art school at age 52, in Portland, and somehow by almost magic got to go to New York City, because there was a program, I found out at PNCA [Pacific Northwest College of Art], that said if there’s room, you can pay your tuition here in Portland, but you can go to this New York studio program, that’s associated with Parsons [School of Design]. I applied for it, I got in, I had my show that fall in 1997. I was only supposed to go for one six-month period. When I knew I was in, then I called my brother, and I was like, “Okay, I’m in, now what?” I mean, his apartment was only a one-bedroom apartment, there was no way I could live with him. But he said, “Well, we’ll see. Let’s just hang in there.” He called me up a couple of weeks later, and said, “You’re not going to believe this. There’s an Italian woman who has a studio apartment down two floors, and she wants to go back to Italy and she doesn’t know what to do. So I rented it for you.”
TYG-Graphic Design: Oh my gosh. How perfect is that? [laughter]
Gretchen: So all those younger—much younger, decades younger—art students, if they found out I was living in a seventeenth-floor beautiful studio apartment with a view of all of New York in Greenwich Village, in walking distance of the school... [grimaces] That’s called being fortunate! I know that, and I know that I’ve experienced that. And I really appreciate that my brother did help me a lot. So I feel that I got a much better art education in terms of art history. The deal about the program in New York was to get into famous artist studios, have artists come—famous artists, even well-known New York artists who have their studios all around there—come to the program, look at our art work, give us critiques. All of that. It was a fanTAStic experience.
Then my brother’s health went way, way, way down, and he didn’t want me to leave, and I didn’t really want to leave, and the people said, “Well, you could just apply to get into Parsons.” There were two girls who walked into Parsons and said, “We want to go to Portland, to PNCA.” So, we exchanged. If there wasn’t that kind of exchange, there wasn’t going to be room for them. [...] So I went to Parsons in the Fine Arts department, and I had painting and drawing teachers there. And it was really a wonderful experience. But it was tempered with the idea that first of all, I was in my fifties, and I had foot pain, and my brother was dying, and it was very, very difficult and stressful. And he did; he died before school got out, and I did everything that I could to keep up with everything. Some of the teachers were very nice to me, and I said, “Well, could you just give me a C, and I won’t take the test?” And they said, “Okay, that’s alright.” I mean, I don’t want to say that they made it real easy for me because I did do my work, but I got through it, and I came back. So then, I finished school at PNCA, and I’ve never forgotten one of the professors there, once I was graduated, I ran into him in the Pearl district—and meanwhile, from the time that I started, they were partly at the Art Museum, and then they went over to the Pearl district, and they were they when I came back from New York. Now, they’ve moved to another building—but the Pearl district, in 1998, when I came back from New York, it was still just kind of starting up, so it was a big deal for them to be there. And it was fun. So I remember this professor saying, after I graduated, he ran into me. And he said, “Well, how are you doing Gretchen?” And I said, “Oh, I’m doing okay.” I really wasn’t, but I didn’t want to say because I was so tired. And he said, “Now, you have to spend the next five years getting us out of your system! Hahaha!”
TYG-GD: You mean, as a school, to break free of their influence?
Gretchen: And one of the things I’d say I learned in art school... I had this one teacher who scoffed, “It just looks like you’re drawing with paint.” Okay. Another one came along, and said, admiringly, “Look! You’re drawing with paint!” So, I think one of my friends said, “Oh, the only thing you’re going to learn in art school is how to do things on a deadline, and how to take criticism.”
TYG-GD: Taking criticism is actually a really good skill.
Gretchen: That is what you want. And you want to respect who is saying this, who is criticizing, or critiquing your work. There’s a lot that is done in art school that does teach you what you are looking for and what you’re supposed to be talking about and saying, not just dissing people or whatever.
I would say that another way I’ve been fortunate is, even though my brother spent all of his money, there was something else that happened. The man he worked for was a billionaire, and there’s a portion of my brother’s estate which helped me to stick with doing art work. I had my house, I had house-mates, I painted in the basement for ten years, even though I said, “I hope I’m not known as one of those women who painted in her basement for ten years!” [laughter] I started selling my work even before art school, while [in] art school, and after. But I have to say that 2001 put a big damper on a lot of that activity for a lot of us, and I was a kind of newbie. But at the same time, I would say that I know that I’m a very fortunate person, because I’m getting to do what I always wanted to do. This is all I ever wanted to do. [Follows an interruption to move cars around in the parking lot.]
Where were we? Okay, so I got out of art school. Had a great time. I also had to have an operation in the middle of my senior year and I almost died with blood clots in my lungs, and after that I was really supposed to finish my thesis work in December, but they said I could let it slip till May. My thesis advisor said, “Oh, if you want to wait till next year, we can do that, that’s okay.” I said, “I’ll go get a gun and shoot myself if I have to do this anymore.” When you’re three and a half years into this, and you have one more half-year, and you’re in the middle of your thesis, you want to get it done! So I managed to get myself up. What I wanted to do, was portraits. Because all along I had been drawing the figure in Phil’s studio—three years of doing that twice a week for three hours at a time, four years always taking drawing classes and always drawing the figure. It’s really partly because of Alice Neel, partly because it’s a real tradition, partly because it’s very hard to do: it’s hard work to learn how to do that. Even if you have a natural ability—maybe I have some of that—I did it. I got carpal tunnel syndrome, I got stress injuries, I got a knobby thing here [points at her hand], shoulder problems... but I really was determined. I took as many painting classes as I could. I took them at night, and I took them during the day. So I kept going.
I eventually got out of my basement, and made a little studio in the back, with a door out to the deck, which was really nice. I showed my work at some places in Portland. Nothing big-time, because [...] you have to create a body of work. So, to me, that’s what’s in Ona [Restaurant & Lounge, in Yachats]: a body of work. And that’s not my first body of work—I’ve done many others. I’ll show you around here, because there’s evidence of that here. I loved going outdoors in the ninety degree summer heat, in the shade of the big beautiful trees in Laurelhurst Park and do figurative drawings and paintings like that. I sold a bunch of those. But then 2008 came, and that was a real tough one for all of us. Everyone, whether you owned property, whether you were an artist—whatever you did, it was like a world-wide crash and it was difficult. And I remember reading a New York article about how galleries were sending out letters to their rich patrons saying, please, buy art! These artists are going to die if you don’t buy art! And we have a $57,000 overhead that we’re not going to be able to pay! This is the moment of truth kind of thing. There’s definitely something about “Why are doing art?” You have to keep that in your mind and heart and in your gut, and say, “Because I have this need to do this. I really can’t not do it.” Of course there’s ego involved, which says, “I want to identify as an artist. I can’t just sit here and not be doing it.”
So, in time, because of my experience living down in Bob Creek, knowing this area—and even in Portland I’d say, “Oh, I’m going down to Yachats!” and they’d go, “What? Where’s that?” “Oh, forget it.” Finally I got to the point where I could sell my house in Portland, and I did, and I didn’t really know exactly what I was going to do so I moved into an apartment. Those were my years of really living irresponsibly, which I was completely into. And then pretty soon I’m turning 70, and going, “Oh, I always wanted to be an old lady back at the coast!” so I started coming back here, over a number of years. And I ran into somebody who used to date my younger brother in Eugene in middle school, who lives in Yachats, and I’ll leave out her name, but she helped me. I said, “I need a house-sitting gig!” so I could maybe try to figure out where is my place here on the Oregon coast. Also, I grew up from age eight to sixteen in Eureka. It’s on the coast—it’s a little bit like Coos Bay or Waldport, but there’s the same kind of weather. I get over here and I just go, “Yes!” [groans emphatically] I lived in Portland for the Portlandia years—it was wonderful! We had a wonderful time, and I lived as an urbanite, which I wanted to do, and I got it all out of my system, and I said, “I can’t take this anymore. I want to move over here.”
So my friend and I were sitting at the Green Salmon looking at The Skinny, and there was a trailer [with an affordable price]. And my friend said, “Oh, but it’s in a beautiful place!” But I came and I really didn’t like it. So I called Charlie Tabasko, and we established that we were in Eugene in the 60’s at the same time. He said, “There’s a nicer one, if you want to see it tomorrow. It’s more, but not so much more.” So I came over here the next day, and there had been a sale fall-through the day before. I was here at eleven, and Charlie said, “I’m showing it to somebody else at one, so you have one hour to make up your mind whether you’re buying this or not.”
Okay, now let me show you around a little bit. [She does so.] I thought it looked like a good idea, and in an hour I made up my mind and said, “Yes, I’m going to do it.” The only way I could make up my mind in one hour that “I’m going to buy this place and move here!” is because I knew that there were people playing ping pong in Yachats, at the Commons, on Monday nights. I didn’t really feel ready to give up my 20 years of playing ping pong in Portland. And two weeks later it was mine, and a month later I moved down. And I’ve been the happiest, happiest, happiest 72-year old now you’ve ever met. [laughter]
[She shows us more of her work inside] That’s one time in Portland where we were doing what’s called “up-cycle”—so that’s old canvas, old materials, and pennies on it.
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| Up-cycled painting by Gretchen Milhaupt |
But here, this one: that was my very first painting. I learned about an artist named Oskar Kokoschka, and I was trying to do a self-portrait in the vein of Kokoshka. But I didn’t do it from looking in the mirror—I was looking at a photograph that somebody had taken of me.
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| Self-portrait in the vein of Oskar Kokoshka, by Gretchen Milhaupt |
Gretchen: No, there’s a whole discussion to be had about that. This is something that I refuse to do, because one thing you’re doing is painting a photograph. It’s just a little object here; it’s flat, and everything is taken out of it. It’s not the real thing. [...] These are older paintings done in oil, done outdoors, Portland scenes. And I’ve done dozens and dozens of them. I like oil paint, I like acrylic paint—the ones at Ona are all acrylic paint—and I like gouache. This is gouache. It’s an original painting, from a drawing that I did. I had a model, I drew the model, then I used that drawing to make a painting. That’s one way that I like to do that. Now this: I was out in the park and there were models there. But there’s also some level of making things up, too. One thing I’m not interested in, is realism. And I say, damn the details. [laughter] I’m not putting in eyelashes. I’m not putting fingernails on the fingers. I’m not even maybe making the fingers. You know that’s a foot! But really, it’s a painting. I’m not interested in tedium.
[To Allen] So, you posed a very interesting question about using a photograph. So, in my [portfolio] album, there’s a picture of two kids that I painted, a girl in a pink blouse and her brother next to it. Right after art school, a friend brought his kids over to my studio basement and said, “Alright, I want you to do their portrait, but you have to do it looking at them—there’s no using photography. And I learned the difference. And I’m very grateful to him. Since I did those portraits, I told people that if they wanted to come in and have me do a portrait, I’d try to do it in five sittings. I remember saying to little Chloe, who was eleven or so, and it was in the summertime and she was all tired-looking in the beginning, and she came back the next week and I said, “Chloe, are you the same person today that you were last week?” And she looked at me [like I was crazy]. “Well, I’m not the same person I was last week. I was really into it last week. Today I’m tired, and I’m not sure I really want to do this, but here we are, we have to do it. So I’m not the same person. Really, I don’t think you are either, because this is a very in-the-moment thing.” And the painting grew, and got better, and I learned that it does get better. By people coming back, and they learn what their pose is, maybe the light changes a little bit, maybe they change a little bit, maybe I change a little bit: it’s a process that builds a full, rounded painting. There are layers of paint. You don’t know that’s what you’re seeing is all that painting. But you are. So it’s a line that I’ve drawn, and it’s probably like shooting yourself in the foot. Because if I could just do portraits from photographs, then maybe I could be doing that. But I don’t want to do that. And guess what? I’m old enough to say that I don’t want to do what I don’t want to do. [laughter]
TYG: Did you have anything else you wanted to say?
Gretchen: Well, when I got here, a friend said, “You know, you should show your work at Ona.” I said okay, and I sent [Michelle Korgan] some pictures, and she said no. So I thought, “Well okay, I guess I’d better re-strategize here.” So, this is how things happened, and it’s how things happen at the coast: I went to the art group, and I met nice people, and I did it more for meeting people than doing the art work. I got here in May, and all that first fall I had to have a bunch of little surgeries that were unpleasant, and I couldn’t really do things. Finally in January I got up the nerve to go Monday night and face those people in Yachats, whatever level of play they had. I would talk to Leon, and he would say, “Just go!” But I was nervous.
TYG-GD: This is the ping pong people?
Gretchen: Yes, the ping pong people. I was nervous first of all that maybe they’d all be really terrible and it would be a big disappointment, or they’d be really good and I wouldn’t be able to keep up. So it’s just something that you worry about, and it’s hard. Anyway, so I faced my fears and went over, and we had a great time. Subsequently, I feel that they are some of the core people that I formed friendships with. That’s how I met Ian [Smith], and that’s how I met Chris [Graamans], his brother-in-law. Last year, I decided that “I need Chris to come over here and take photographs of my artwork, because I have to get more serious about actually doing something.” And then, I met some guys who moved to Yachats, and they bought a house for Airbnb on the ocean. And I said to them, “You need some of my big paintings in there!” And they said, “Yeah!” So they did. And that helped me get them out, out of here. Anything that helps them get out. And then I made a new friend, and she bought a house, and she saw the paintings, and she said, “Oh, I have to have one” but now she has three. And then she said, “Why aren’t your paintings in Ona? So I said something to my other ping pong buddy, “You’ve had your artwork there, would you say something to Michelle?” And so he did, and she came here. My goal was—I thought the best thing I could do for me and my artwork was to be in Ona for three months in the summer. I knew that her basic idea is to change every three months. Every month—that’s a nightmare! You have to deal with artists every month? Oh, my god! [laughter] She came here and liked what she saw, and I had five new paintings. One of them wasn’t even finished; it’s the triptych in the entry. She said, “Well how long will it take you to finish that?” “I don’t know...” Then it was like, “You have to have them there by June 28th.” “Oh, I’ll get it done!” And the other two, I got done too.
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| Triptych by Gretchen Milhaupt |
TYG-GD: [laughter] Sometimes deadlines are not so bad!
Gretchen: So there you go, there’s that story!
TYG: Well thank you so much for your time!
Gretchen: Thank you for coming.
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